If you compare linux with microsoft's current operating system windows XP then you will find windows on top in terms of applications and ease of use.My intention is to suggest linux developers,distributors to think on some of these issues.If you think about this issue from newusers point of view,also those who want to switch from PC to Linux,then you may agree with some points.I'm trying to focus on How difficult it is to swithc from windows to linux. You may disagree at some points but you can correct me.
1] When you comapre Linux with windows in terms of applications,Many programmers will say number of applications for the linux is now more than windows.Yes it is true upto some extent,but if you comapre Adobe's application with any of the open source then you will find where linux is.Macromedia's Flash is still on top in market,there is simply no open source or even commercial application that can stand in front of it.
<b>So Linux needs a killer application that can follow the trends of market.You can't expect market to follow linux everytime.</b>
2] Microsoft comes up with some of the fixed software packages.E.g.You can find program compatibility wizard in every next release after XP,that is in Server & Longhorn.This is not the case with the many linux distributions,Some times these distros fails to add many developer packages(E.g.Kdevelop,QTdesigner kit,scribus).they just comes up with typical internet,games packages.Many distros only include Python,TCl-tk.Many distros comes up with the single install CD that have
Networking/Server software,Office,Games,Mutimedia >>Audio>>video>>Graphics.
Most of the softwares in this categary are essential while i can point out 30% are optional<extra>
and thier is no space for Developers.Many IDE's are not given with the linux distros.
Developer Packages comes up with most of linux distros are:-
Python,Tcl-tk,Apache,Perl
(Gcc is optional with most of distros)
Most of the softwares is with Linux distros on ther online repositories.So developers/programmers who dont have internet connection & can't get thier hands onto linux dev softwares CD's can quit with programming on linux envirement.But most of the computer users in (say more than 50%) are not connected to internet.so getting most of the application for linux is not possible.On the windows side you can get developer softwares in most of magazines or from your friend.
I got reply to my post on ubuntuforums on this issue<< "
As far as Ubuntu's target market....I would say intermediate computer user. You have to set up some things yourself. But...well....like most of our software its in the online repo. I might get put in my place for being so frank...but Ubuntu is kinda a broadband OS. Read this here:
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showpos...139&postcount=3 "
<b>So for linux must come up with some fix packages for developers,desktop publishing users.and distribution companies need good package/source maintainer.</b>
atleast i m forced not to program in Linux.
3] Getting help with linux is also not so easy,everytime.But for windows there are some places where you can find tweaks,tips,treaks for win OS.Many MVP's already made some tweaks for XP and made that OS working smoother.
Why there is no tweaks,tips & tricks sites for Linux?Most of the windows patches,updates,service packs are avialbel with most of the magazines.If you want to make switch from PC to MAC then you will learn it in few weeks but in case for linux you have learn a lot from package installations (Alien incase of Debian),updating kernel etc.
if you ask question over lists forums,You will get insulted or Being ignored.Most of time your post get under flame mode.
I can understanfd many companies,goverment are switching to linux.for many users those are not having internet connecton,it is Hard to switch to linux.Even programmer like Mahesh2k in ths forum facing problems.How non-internet users can get thier applications?updates?
What you think,is linux going to be Broadband OS?
Full Version: Switchin Users {XP} to {Linux}
For me this seems more like a rant than questions but I'll try to answer anyway.
1.)
Well... if you really REALLY need some special programs that are only available for Windows... MAYBE Linux isn't for you. Maybe you should stick to Windows.
OR - if you really want to swith to linux and there are only one or two programs that you need that aren't available in Linux you could try CrossoverOffice (commercial version of WINE) which will run many Windows applications in Linux, among them Macromedia Flash.
AND - There are killer applications for Linux and they follow the Linux market since they are developed by the users. The difference is that in the Windows world... Microsoft CREATES the market.
But it is not Linux's fault that there is no Macromedia Flash for Linux. It is simply a matter of userbase. Until there are enough potential customers running Linux, Macromedia will not port its programs to Linux.
1.)
Well... if you really REALLY need some special programs that are only available for Windows... MAYBE Linux isn't for you. Maybe you should stick to Windows.
OR - if you really want to swith to linux and there are only one or two programs that you need that aren't available in Linux you could try CrossoverOffice (commercial version of WINE) which will run many Windows applications in Linux, among them Macromedia Flash.
AND - There are killer applications for Linux and they follow the Linux market since they are developed by the users. The difference is that in the Windows world... Microsoft CREATES the market.
But it is not Linux's fault that there is no Macromedia Flash for Linux. It is simply a matter of userbase. Until there are enough potential customers running Linux, Macromedia will not port its programs to Linux.
2.)
I can't really make out what you want to say with "question" number two...
What has Windows compatibility wizards to do with developerpackages not being available in this or that distribution?
As I understand this question it is a problem for you that some distributions don't come with developerpackages on CD but you have to download them?
If that is a problem, buy another distribution. Debian currently (Debian GNU/Linux 3.1r0) comes on 14 (!) CDs and should include most developertools available for Linux. You will however have to install them manually since they aren't part of the default installation. (Not all people want to develope their own software.)
Ubunto, on the other hand, is a distribution based on Debian but directed towards end users. And hence does not include all the developertools that you write about. If you, however, want them, they make them available to you on the Internet as a service. You can also use all the native Debian packages with Ubunto.
As for not getting Linux software on CDs that come with magazines or from friends... you simply buy the wrong magazines or don't have the right friends.
eg: If you buy or get the 14 Debian CDs you are free to share those with your friends. Then you will be the guy that they get all the software from.
To get the Debian CDs you'll either have to buy them from some store (I guess the cost would be about $15 + shipping) or you could contact your nearest LUG (Linux User Group) and hope they have some that you could copy, or you could talk to somebody with a broadband connection that could help you download them and burn them to CDs.
If none of these are an option for you, as a last resort you could send me a PM and I could download them, burn them to CD and ship them to you.
What I don't undertstand is WHY you are so disappointed. You get something for free and you complain about not every application in the universe being on the CD?
Most developertools in Windows are not free and unless you are using pirated software you have to pay quite a lot of money to get them. And when you are given developertools for free you complain that you have to download them?
If so, that is your choice. I can't see any reason for that.
I can't really make out what you want to say with "question" number two...
What has Windows compatibility wizards to do with developerpackages not being available in this or that distribution?
As I understand this question it is a problem for you that some distributions don't come with developerpackages on CD but you have to download them?
If that is a problem, buy another distribution. Debian currently (Debian GNU/Linux 3.1r0) comes on 14 (!) CDs and should include most developertools available for Linux. You will however have to install them manually since they aren't part of the default installation. (Not all people want to develope their own software.)
Ubunto, on the other hand, is a distribution based on Debian but directed towards end users. And hence does not include all the developertools that you write about. If you, however, want them, they make them available to you on the Internet as a service. You can also use all the native Debian packages with Ubunto.
As for not getting Linux software on CDs that come with magazines or from friends... you simply buy the wrong magazines or don't have the right friends.
eg: If you buy or get the 14 Debian CDs you are free to share those with your friends. Then you will be the guy that they get all the software from.
To get the Debian CDs you'll either have to buy them from some store (I guess the cost would be about $15 + shipping) or you could contact your nearest LUG (Linux User Group) and hope they have some that you could copy, or you could talk to somebody with a broadband connection that could help you download them and burn them to CDs.
If none of these are an option for you, as a last resort you could send me a PM and I could download them, burn them to CD and ship them to you.
What I don't undertstand is WHY you are so disappointed. You get something for free and you complain about not every application in the universe being on the CD?
Most developertools in Windows are not free and unless you are using pirated software you have to pay quite a lot of money to get them. And when you are given developertools for free you complain that you have to download them?
| QUOTE |
| atleast i m forced not to program in Linux. |
If so, that is your choice. I can't see any reason for that.
3.)
There are a lot of places to get help with Linux, too. You simply haven't found the right place. You'll have to start in a forum for newbies and you have to be prepared to read on your own.
eg: Here is the installation manual for Debian http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/installmanual
It is available in several diffrent languages (not in my native language which is Swedish, but I use the English version if I need it).
There are also a lot of sites with tips and tricks for Linux. Here are a couple of them:
http://www.linux.com
http://lwn.net/
http://www.justlinux.com/
Then there are sites specific to one problem, like these:
http://www.linuxprinting.org/
http://www.linmodems.org/
and a site for installing Linux on laptops:
http://tuxmobil.org/mylaptops.html
and many, many more.
There is also IRC but there you should be careful to post in the correct channel... don't ask RedHat questions in the Debian channel... and try to find a channel for newbies before starting to ask newbie questions. And PLEASE at least search through the Installation manual before you ask... and don't get mad just because people refer you back to the manual.
There is also this very neat thing in Linux... if you want to know what a command does and what options there are.. eg: the command free, you type in man free and get a manualpage. In that page you scroll down with the "spacebar".
About updates to programs in Linux... in a stable distribution most of them are security-related. If your computer isn't connected to the Internet you might not need them... and once in a while they put out an update CD that you can buy or download... not much diffrent than when Microsoft makes a "Servicepack".
If your PC is connected to the internet you can get the updates much faster right after they have been released... much like you can from "Windows Update" which also requires Internet access.
BTW, alien isn't part of installing applications in Debian. alien is a tool for converting packages made for RedHat to packages made for Debian or vice versa, and it is only to be used when there is no other way to get that package... since native Debian packages contain so much more information about dependencies and other things. Also, when converting packages with alien things might get put in the wrong place in your Debian system.
/LinuxSam
There are a lot of places to get help with Linux, too. You simply haven't found the right place. You'll have to start in a forum for newbies and you have to be prepared to read on your own.
eg: Here is the installation manual for Debian http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/installmanual
It is available in several diffrent languages (not in my native language which is Swedish, but I use the English version if I need it).
There are also a lot of sites with tips and tricks for Linux. Here are a couple of them:
http://www.linux.com
http://lwn.net/
http://www.justlinux.com/
Then there are sites specific to one problem, like these:
http://www.linuxprinting.org/
http://www.linmodems.org/
and a site for installing Linux on laptops:
http://tuxmobil.org/mylaptops.html
and many, many more.
There is also IRC but there you should be careful to post in the correct channel... don't ask RedHat questions in the Debian channel... and try to find a channel for newbies before starting to ask newbie questions. And PLEASE at least search through the Installation manual before you ask... and don't get mad just because people refer you back to the manual.
There is also this very neat thing in Linux... if you want to know what a command does and what options there are.. eg: the command free, you type in man free and get a manualpage. In that page you scroll down with the "spacebar".
About updates to programs in Linux... in a stable distribution most of them are security-related. If your computer isn't connected to the Internet you might not need them... and once in a while they put out an update CD that you can buy or download... not much diffrent than when Microsoft makes a "Servicepack".
If your PC is connected to the internet you can get the updates much faster right after they have been released... much like you can from "Windows Update" which also requires Internet access.
BTW, alien isn't part of installing applications in Debian. alien is a tool for converting packages made for RedHat to packages made for Debian or vice versa, and it is only to be used when there is no other way to get that package... since native Debian packages contain so much more information about dependencies and other things. Also, when converting packages with alien things might get put in the wrong place in your Debian system.
/LinuxSam
BTW!
It would be nice to know if you read my post and any questions it might have raised...
/LinuxSam
It would be nice to know if you read my post and any questions it might have raised...
/LinuxSam
by the way - LONG LIVE MICROSOFT - WOOWHO 
| QUOTE (neojd78 @ Jul 14 2005, 11:40 PM) |
| by the way - LONG LIVE MICROSOFT - WOOWHO |
YES!!!
but not on my computer...
Hi Arun,
It's good that you tried Linux.Yes,switching is painfull for Windows Users.I can see that you are gettin used to the windows software.Actualy Normal people dont use operating system,they use the applications made for it.
<b>So best way to switch to linux is that use the open source softwares which are available on windows as well as on linux platform.Once you get used to open source software Then you can easily migrate to Linux</b>
You can use Openoffice instaed of microsoft Office suite.Try GIMP instead of Photoshop if you are not that professional.
I can't help you with Flash or Dreamweaver,i agree that no software can stand in thier way.software developers on linux side are trying to beat the killer softwares made for windows platform. Rapid Developement of linux forced Adobe inc to make PDF viewer for linux platform.I m sure that many other Adobe softwares will available for linux in future.
As far as obtaining applications for non internet users is that they can subscribe for any linux magazine & request thier development packages.most of linux magazine updates development tools in thier Free CDs.You can even ask to some magazines to collect source of some applicaions in linux to include in thier CDRom's.You can learn from that side.Being programmer is not so easy,you have to gather all your tools on your own.
As far as selection of distro is concerned i suggest you to try Redhat,Mendrake,Suse.You will get your packages in their CD's.Please stick with these distros if you don't have internet connection.If you go with Mepis,Ubuntu or any other downloadable Debian distro then getting .DEB packages via offline means is difficult.Yes,you can use ALIEN to convert RPM to DEB,but if you install most of the Window managers or system software this way then you may screw up the system.
For getting help with Linux problem is difficult if you don't have internet connection.You can't get patches,updates etc.But try some help sites Linuxsam mentioned above.
I don't know about anyone but sticking with windows is like being handicap.Because you don't know your operating system in depth(Source Code/Kernel,etc).It's my limitation that i m forced to use windows as host and linux as guest in VMware.But one day i will change this situation to make reverse of it.You can read about windows problems here http://www.futurepower.net/microsoft.htm
Unix is known to be one of the most stable Operating Systems to be used.Unix variant linux is popular among other operating system.
Even Apple's Mac OS X is based under Unix.Just think why worlds best operating system will use Unix?
Currently everyone is talking about Linux in market.Impact of this talk is on normal users is that they want to use it but if it not fit to thier expectations they think it's crap.but Linux is not like use n throw software.It is operating system,every OS have its own way for handling users & tasks.You can't expect everything in windows way.
My advice to most of linux guru's is that instead of doing advocacy for Linux OS, they can ask users to try open source software.once they get used to it,they can easily switch to linux anyway cause For most of the office users/DTP operators operating system is not the problem/barrier.what they want is application.So Adobe product users find no trouble switching from PC to Mac.
Arun whatever problems you faced while working with KDE,Gnome during your use,you can make list of usability problems & can post to their forums.Chances are there someone will listen to you,and they will improve on usability side.
If you want to know more about Open source alternatives of window based softwares.Please send email to winlintable@linuxrsp.ru or check the website http://www.linuxrsp.ru/win-lin-soft/
You can search for this Word "The table of equivalents Windows software in Linux".This will give results for tables like mentioned above.
Hope this helps.
It's good that you tried Linux.Yes,switching is painfull for Windows Users.I can see that you are gettin used to the windows software.Actualy Normal people dont use operating system,they use the applications made for it.
<b>So best way to switch to linux is that use the open source softwares which are available on windows as well as on linux platform.Once you get used to open source software Then you can easily migrate to Linux</b>
You can use Openoffice instaed of microsoft Office suite.Try GIMP instead of Photoshop if you are not that professional.
I can't help you with Flash or Dreamweaver,i agree that no software can stand in thier way.software developers on linux side are trying to beat the killer softwares made for windows platform. Rapid Developement of linux forced Adobe inc to make PDF viewer for linux platform.I m sure that many other Adobe softwares will available for linux in future.
As far as obtaining applications for non internet users is that they can subscribe for any linux magazine & request thier development packages.most of linux magazine updates development tools in thier Free CDs.You can even ask to some magazines to collect source of some applicaions in linux to include in thier CDRom's.You can learn from that side.Being programmer is not so easy,you have to gather all your tools on your own.
As far as selection of distro is concerned i suggest you to try Redhat,Mendrake,Suse.You will get your packages in their CD's.Please stick with these distros if you don't have internet connection.If you go with Mepis,Ubuntu or any other downloadable Debian distro then getting .DEB packages via offline means is difficult.Yes,you can use ALIEN to convert RPM to DEB,but if you install most of the Window managers or system software this way then you may screw up the system.
For getting help with Linux problem is difficult if you don't have internet connection.You can't get patches,updates etc.But try some help sites Linuxsam mentioned above.
I don't know about anyone but sticking with windows is like being handicap.Because you don't know your operating system in depth(Source Code/Kernel,etc).It's my limitation that i m forced to use windows as host and linux as guest in VMware.But one day i will change this situation to make reverse of it.You can read about windows problems here http://www.futurepower.net/microsoft.htm
Unix is known to be one of the most stable Operating Systems to be used.Unix variant linux is popular among other operating system.
Even Apple's Mac OS X is based under Unix.Just think why worlds best operating system will use Unix?
Currently everyone is talking about Linux in market.Impact of this talk is on normal users is that they want to use it but if it not fit to thier expectations they think it's crap.but Linux is not like use n throw software.It is operating system,every OS have its own way for handling users & tasks.You can't expect everything in windows way.
My advice to most of linux guru's is that instead of doing advocacy for Linux OS, they can ask users to try open source software.once they get used to it,they can easily switch to linux anyway cause For most of the office users/DTP operators operating system is not the problem/barrier.what they want is application.So Adobe product users find no trouble switching from PC to Mac.
Arun whatever problems you faced while working with KDE,Gnome during your use,you can make list of usability problems & can post to their forums.Chances are there someone will listen to you,and they will improve on usability side.
If you want to know more about Open source alternatives of window based softwares.Please send email to winlintable@linuxrsp.ru or check the website http://www.linuxrsp.ru/win-lin-soft/
You can search for this Word "The table of equivalents Windows software in Linux".This will give results for tables like mentioned above.
Hope this helps.
BTW, if in India here are a few places where you can order Debian CDs.
http://www.debian.org/CD/vendors/#in
/LinuxSam
http://www.debian.org/CD/vendors/#in
/LinuxSam
well i have so many questions for sam and mahesh2k i will come up with the list and will be back here short.but i m looking for Unix short intro tutorial ,can you redirect me to any link?
zipped tut text file will be fine.any way i will reply later.
zipped tut text file will be fine.any way i will reply later.
Hi arunpawar,
While you are waiting for more specialized advices, you may take a look at
http://www.linux-tutorial.info/ and http://www.aboutdebian.com/
I am using them to learn something about Linux
Hope it will be helpful.
Chris
While you are waiting for more specialized advices, you may take a look at
http://www.linux-tutorial.info/ and http://www.aboutdebian.com/
I am using them to learn something about Linux
Hope it will be helpful.
Chris
Hi there linuxSam & Mahesh2k, Your posts really made me to think on this switching issue now.I dont know meaning of RANT but anyway.
First answer to your question is the CD's and magazines arround me are Linux journal,Linux for you,LinuxWorks magazines all are local indian magazines.Stuff i get thru these magazines is usually internet utilities,antivirus,Java,Acounting softwares,and some KDE utilities.Trust me you will never see any developer softwares in these magazines.I tried to request the softwares but it didn't worked.
I really get frustrated becuase i m not getting a single IDE for Linux.Can you suggest me any distro that have atleast Kdevelop+QTdesigner?
I m agree with mahesh2k as Fedora is packed up with Developer tools so i m going to stick with it.It's better to leave debian distros.
As far as help sites concerned i need your help with these:-
1.I think before switching to linux it is good to understand unix (I m Curious,that's it),Can you suggest any Unix tutorials that is newbie friendly(Zipped text files wil be fine).It may cover Basics of Console unix & shells etc.
2.Is there any place (Forums) where there Developer tools for linux are discussed i.e.Newbie programmer can ask questions etc.where can i hang to learn some of the advanced skills,tricks regarding programming?
3.I consider myself pretty knowledgeable about windows operating system and its workings, is it possible to learn/aquire simmilar skills in linux/Unix ? How much practice requires to be a Unix guru?
4.Another question for Mahesh2k ,It's about Window manger in Mac OS X.As Apple have thier own GUI,And it is unix based(You can run multiple Window managers in UNIX/Linux,You have that option during Logon),is it possible to run Gnome,KDE or X11 based window managers in Mac OS X?
Thanks for helping me..I hope i will get answer.
First answer to your question is the CD's and magazines arround me are Linux journal,Linux for you,LinuxWorks magazines all are local indian magazines.Stuff i get thru these magazines is usually internet utilities,antivirus,Java,Acounting softwares,and some KDE utilities.Trust me you will never see any developer softwares in these magazines.I tried to request the softwares but it didn't worked.
I really get frustrated becuase i m not getting a single IDE for Linux.Can you suggest me any distro that have atleast Kdevelop+QTdesigner?
I m agree with mahesh2k as Fedora is packed up with Developer tools so i m going to stick with it.It's better to leave debian distros.
As far as help sites concerned i need your help with these:-
1.I think before switching to linux it is good to understand unix (I m Curious,that's it),Can you suggest any Unix tutorials that is newbie friendly(Zipped text files wil be fine).It may cover Basics of Console unix & shells etc.
2.Is there any place (Forums) where there Developer tools for linux are discussed i.e.Newbie programmer can ask questions etc.where can i hang to learn some of the advanced skills,tricks regarding programming?
3.I consider myself pretty knowledgeable about windows operating system and its workings, is it possible to learn/aquire simmilar skills in linux/Unix ? How much practice requires to be a Unix guru?
4.Another question for Mahesh2k ,It's about Window manger in Mac OS X.As Apple have thier own GUI,And it is unix based(You can run multiple Window managers in UNIX/Linux,You have that option during Logon),is it possible to run Gnome,KDE or X11 based window managers in Mac OS X?
Thanks for helping me..I hope i will get answer.
| QUOTE |
| I really get frustrated becuase i m not getting a single IDE for Linux.Can you suggest me any distro that have atleast Kdevelop+QTdesigner? I m agree with mahesh2k as Fedora is packed up with Developer tools so i m going to stick with it.It's better to leave debian distros. |
Since you seem to have your mind made up I'm not going to try to convince you to change your mind. HOWEVER I must correct you since you are wrong. Debian ( the original distribution not debian based ones) are packed with all the tools you can need... It comes on fourteen!!! (14) CDs. And that is not counting the source. That comes on another fifteen (15) CDs.
Those two packages you mention Kdevelop and QTdesigner are available in Debian. Their packagenames are: kdevelop3 here you can see a list of associated packages: http://packages.debian.org/cgi-bin/search_...ble&release=all
and
qt3-designer and here you can read about it: http://packages.debian.org/stable/devel/qt3-designer
BTW you can read more about Debian at http://www.debian.org it might even be available in your native language since it is available in my native language, which is Swedish, BTW.
Since I'm no Linux guru I don't know how long it will take to become one...
Help for newbies in linux programing... maybe this could be a place? http://www.linux-programming-newbie.org/
and when you are done there maybe you could proceed to: http://www.advancedlinuxprogramming.com/
It's actually a book that you can download and read... discussions about programing could probably be held on IRC. Try Freenode.net they hold lots of opensource related channels.
Will try to find you more URLs when I get home in a couple of days... or you could try searching Google.
/LinuxSam
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